1800-1899 Life In Columbus/Bartholomew County

[David Sechrest]

I wanted to reply earlier, but have been kind of busy. Took a friend of mine to the VA Friday, and my daughter came down that evening. Anyway, in continuing the discussion regarding the "ladies picture..."

hattonj said:

Charles F. Sparrel...came to Columbus, Ind., fourteen years ago...an architect..the three homes built for Frank T. Crump on North Washington St...the residence of William Ruddick...Crump's Theater and a great number of others...

When I was researching the Crump article for the website, I believe I ran across info stating that Sparrell had built Crump's. To fall back on those Sanborn maps I posted earlier (1886-3 years before Crump's; 1890-a year after Crump's), that Charles Sparrell built the actual theatre itself (the back portion denoted on the 1890 map). It seems logical that to tie in with this new theatre building that he also renovated the inside as well as the frontage street exterior (accounting for Crump's name in the 3 arches running across the top of the building.

hattonj said:

From the 1888 History of Bartholomew County:

Section- Struggle with a demon pg. 202- 203
Discussion on tempearance movements

... Ther also were organizations to help prosecute liquor law violators, one called the "Bartholomew County Carson League," and in 1874, the Crusaders, an organization of women, appearted to reclaim those addicted and to induce saloon keepers and others to abandon their spirits businesses. The women held public prayer in or near the saloons with singing and short addresses and drew much attention. Some saloons closed and the pledge was taken by several thousand Bartholomew county residents.

Could these ladies by the Crusaders?

It just seems to much of a coincidence that the ladies pictured ARE NOT the Crusaders. I cannot think of one possible reason why so many women dressed in black would be congregating in the front of two saloons.

Jason, thanks for taking the time to check all this stuff out! It sheds MORE light on the pictures!

[RER]

From The Republic Paper Today (Harry McCawley Writes)
Columbus, Indiana

Postcard reveals Crump much older than believed






A recent article about local happenings in the 1870s has led to some interesting discoveries by folks in the early 21st century.

One of the photos that accompanied a piece about the discovery by former Columbus resident Bob Records of stereoscopic images of Columbus in the early 1870s might even call for a rewriting of Columbus history.

At the least, it probably needs to be refreshed.

Included in a collection of stereoscopic images of Columbus and Hope taken by Hope photographer Julius T. Schaub in the 1870s, was a shot of a group of women parked in front of a saloon on what was then called Tipton Street but is today Third Street.

Although the women in the picture are interesting, it is one of the buildings in the background that particularly interested David Sechrest, Webmaster and proprietor of the historiccolumbusindiana Web site.

David instantly recognized the three curved arches that appeared above the women — they were the skyline for Crump’s Theater.

What surprised David at the time is that the three arches weren’t supposed to be there in the early 1870s.

“After doing so much research regarding John Crump and the Crump Theater, this revelation caught me off guard, to say the least,” David said. “How could Crump’s Theater, built in 1889, be in a picture taken before April 3, 1874, (the year the courthouse clock first went into operation)?”

David came by that conclusion because one of the buildings in the background was the courthouse, and the clock face had yet to be installed.

David’s research had led him to the conclusion that John Crump had erected the building from the ground up.

In one respect, it was because the Crump Theater had originally been at the back of the building.

The front portion of the structure, it turns out, had been there several years before 1889.

Keith’s Arcade

That was when the building was known as Keith’s Arcade.

Exactly how many years it was there before 1889 will require some research.

According to a revised version of the 1879 Illustrated Atlas of Bartholomew County, Isham Keith moved to the Columbus area in 1854 and started a mercantile business at the northwest corner of Third and Washington streets.

In 1860 Isham and one of his sons established a hardware store at the southeast corner of the same intersection with Keith’s Hall, for stage shows, in the rear section of the second floor. Later the Keiths erected Keith’s Arcade, with a theater and office at the present location of Crump’s Theater on Third Street.

Pinning down an exact date for the construction is difficult, but it had to be before April 4, 1872. That’s when The Republican — the predecessor of The Republic — began operations as a weekly paper. In the first edition it reported its offices were in Rooms 4 and 5 upstairs in the Keith’s Arcade building.

David did some additional research and discovered that according to an article in The Evening Republican in 1920, Crump Theater underwent a major renovation. At that time the three arches were removed.

In 1941, the vitrolite glass that makes up the present exterior was installed.

So, the Crump building is a lot older than many people had thought, which leaves an interesting question.

Would some of that original exterior dating to sometime before April 1872 still be there behind the current facade?

Harry McCawley is associate editor of The Republic. He can be reached at [e-mail] or 379-5620.
__________________

Comment: We normally don't transfer much from the paper in Columbus but this one I feel needs to be placed on the boards to talk about further. I am sure that wonderful Republic paper doesn't mind us placing it here for further input and discussion. The postcard was David Sechrest's he had on file and Harry and he did a wonderful job explaining what part of Columbus Indiana history needs to be re-evaluated, and put on the table.

[Jason Hatton]

Well, I went to the Historical Society today to browse around in their city directories as the earliest we have at the library is from 1882. They have an 1865 and an 1875 directory. Some very interesting finds!

1865
-McGrayel Michael- Saloon (no address given)
-Hays W. W. & Co. dry goods, groceries etc. corner of Washington and Tipton

1875

Schwartzkoff, Joseph Saloon, north side of Tipton (3rd St.) between Washington and Jackson

McGravel Michael, Saloon (no address given), residence corner of Vernon and Mechanic

Hayes, James C. Staple and Fancy Goods, 27 n Washington residence same

Druggists- Smith James A North East corner Tipton and Washington

Grocers- Hayes, James C. 27 N. Washington

Clothing-
-Kaufman Louis north west corner of Tipton and Washington
-Oppenheim Brothers north side of Tipton between Jackson and Washington

Keith, I dealer in stoves, hardware, tinware, sash & c. South East corner of Washington and Tipton

The interesting thing is that McGravel Saloon, Hays Grocery, and the Schwartzkoff Saloon are not listed in the 1882 city directory.

I think this proves without a doubt that the timing of the picture of the lady "Crusaders" was taken somewhere around this date.

However, I do not think this picture was taken at exactly the same time as the 3rd St. picture. Here's why:


On the right you will see the 3rd st. picture, we know this has to be sometime before Apr. 1875 when the clock was started as the clock is not in the courthouse. Taken the above into account we now "know" that the picture on the left was taken somewhere between 1875 and 1882.

If you look at the buildings being shown in each picture you will see that on the 3rd St. picture (right) starting at Washington st. and heading west you will see the clothing store on the corner (blue), another building (green), and what appears to be either an empty spot or something under construction (red).

If you compare this to the Crusaders picture (left), you will see that indeed the blue and green buildings match up. However, the red building, what appears to be the Schwartzkoff Saloon, is obviously different than what can be seen in the 3rd St. photo.

So, it is my deduction that the 3rd St. picture was taking sometime in 1873-1874 and that the Crusaders' picture was taken sometime between 1875-1882.

What this indeed confirms is that the facade of what would be Crump's New Theatre, was in place before John S. Crump opened it in 1889.

However, that still leaves us with the questions of who built it and why?

[David Sechrest]

hattonj said: So, it is my deduction that the 3rd St. picture was taking sometime in 1873-1874 and that the Crusaders' picture was taken sometime between 1875-1882. What this indeed confirms is that the facade of what would be Crump's New Theatre, was in place before John S. Crump opened it in 1889.

I've studied both of these pictures until I'm blurry-eyed!

One thing jumps out at me in comparing both:

1) both pictures were taken around the same time of the year. Note the trees.

Here's what the History Of Bartholomew County, Volume II, says:

"John S. Crump...bought the building, Keith's Arcade, from John Keith in 1879 for $6,000. Keith, an attorney, had built the arcade building in 1874, nine years after had had built the building to the west on the corner of 3rd & Washington. Crump closed down most of Keith's Arcade and began extensive rebuilding and remodeling to create an elegant Theatre..." BUT, within the same article, a picture of the Crump building on Washington St. is shown with a caption identifying it as the Crump on 3rd Street (it's the building on Washington St. where A. Tross was and I think almost all of us have determined that we don't know what this business was). That picture is what confused me so much, because as most here already know, the building looks nothing like the old Crump Theatre. To be honest, I took the picture and location as gospel (back around 2001-2005), and since that building looks nothing like the Crump building...well...you can see where I'm going here.

That 1874 date never made any sense to me, and only goes to show that when reading information about a "new theatre" being built (or any other building), that one must be very careful as to how to interpret the statement made.

I have thoroughly enjoyed the pictures posted (oh--by the way--go to this link and you can download .png copies of them: commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=columbus+indiana&go=Go)

Now, what I do not know is where the Historical Society obtained the information regarding Keith's Arcade being built in 1874. I'm not questioning this fact...I would just like to know where the info came from.

I appreciate Harry writing the column for today's paper, but personally, I don't think any new light has been shed on anything (and that's my fault). It appears that the information regarding the Crump building existing before John Crump opened his Theatre has been known for some time now...

[Jason Hatton]

Interesting...

Also in the History of Bartholomew County Volume II pg. 337

"Reached by stairs on Third Street, Keith's Hall on the second floor of the 1865 corner building was credited as being the first theater in town."

In the Third St. picture on the left you can see a staircase leading up to a second floor and to the west of that what appears to be a marquee of sorts. Could this be a picture of Keith's Hall?

Also, I think the picture in the history is a misrepresentation. This is pure conjecture on my part as I have no evidence to support it but what do you think about this timeline?

1874- Keith builds Keith's Arcade (present day Crump Theatre) with the arched/spiked facade.

1879- J.S. Crump buys both the Keith's Arcade and the Keith's Hall building (corner of third and Washington) from Keith for $6,000.

188?- Crump starts remodeling and renovating the former Keith's Hall building including putting his name at the top of the side facing Washington St (the picture that is in the history book). The includes the creation of the current building that has the orange bay windows across the alley from the Crump (that appears in the postcard of the Crump, but not ladies' picture). This is office space for him (is that why the bay windows were created?) and other space that is rented out to businesses, etc. This would explain why no Crump business has ever been associated with this building. He just owned it and rented out space.

1889- Crump starts remodeling the former Keith's Arcade into Crump's New Theatre. He leaves the front facade alone, but completely renovates the interior space.

As I said, this is all pure conjecture.

To add to this: pg. 342 in the History of Bart. County vol. II

"There were other theaters in Columbus. Crump's Hall at the corner of Fourth and Washington streets burned to the ground in the 1880's. The owner Francis Jeffereson Crump (J.S. Crump's father), decided to get out of the theater business and did not rebuild."

Maybe this is when John made the decision to renovate Keith's Arcade. He didn't want to compete with his dad in the theater business.

[RER]

First guys, I really am enjoying your conversation about he Crump Theater history search. I can't add much but I did email Jeff Crump this morning and he only responded by saying this about information provided to Harry:

Quote: "I did a little research on the Crump about a year ago in Will Marsh’s book I Discover Columbus. I do not recall whether that is of some help or not. The chapter on the Crump is rather long, Will going into a lot of the shows and stuff that were produced there. But he gave a lot of the history of the building. You have to piece it together in the article. I copied it, highlighting the pertinent parts, and sent it along to Harry McCawley." End Quote

I don't have the book I Discovered Columbus, so I can comment or research. The book may not reveal what we are looking for but I thought I would a least tell you what Jeff said to me.
____________________________

Book Title: H. C. Chandler & Company's Business Directory (Bartholomew County Indiana archives History of Columbus businesses Year 1868

The list I found several years ago and it listed what I said in a recent post dated Sept 3, 2009 in this tread. I will repeat what it said for year 1868

Sanborn Map is dated 1886 (18 years after below info.)

Here are the business names listed during 1868 on Tipton Street near the Bartholomew County Courthouse

Saloons (red circles)

-Schwartzkopf F. (Located on Tipton)

-Maynard & Lowe (Located on Tipton)

-Adolph Hofman (Located on Tipton)

Dry Goods (yellow circle)

-H. Griffin (Located on corner of Tipton & Washington Streets)

-B. F. Little (Located on corner of Tipton & Washington Streets)

-W. Samuels (Located on corner of Tipton & Washington Streets)

Groceries & Provisions (blue circle)

-Arnold & Fawcett (Located on Tipton)

-Greaves Newton (Located on Tipton)


Comment: David ad Jason this may not help you in you research but it establlishes the listed saloons before the 1870s and 1880s.

[David Sechrest]

I have a copy of Will Marsh's book I Discover Columbus, but it's loaned out at the moment.

Will Marsh does talk about several of the Opera Houses in Columbus, including Francis J. Crump's Opera House at the ne corner of 4th & Washington.

He also writes of John Crump's Theatre, but as I recall, it really doesn't shed any additional light upon the subject. It's been some time since I've read that section, but from what I recall, like Jeff says, he writes a lot about the plays, etc. that were held there.

I started posting chapters from the book on the Historic Columbus Indiana website, but file size was getting too large to justify and I stopped (I only have so many gigs of space available and at last count, I was approaching 400 gig used [and I still have several more yearbooks to add!]).

[David Sechrest]

Ok...

One more time...

Photo of ladies on 3rd Street

Cropped photo of Schwartzkopf pic, highlighting the buildings on the north side between Washington and Jackson Sts.

As Chester used to say, "I'm feelin' all swimmy-headed, Mr. Dillon."
These pictures really should come with some sort of disclaimer, something like "Staring at these pictures may cause feelings of dizziness. Prolonged exposure may cause serious brain damage."

There is one very small piece of both pictures that confuses me regarding whether or not the two were taken at different times. And that's the bird nest in the tree in the ladies picture. When I enlarge the Schwartzkopf pic to 600 dpi, there is a dark spot in the same place as that bird nest in the ladies pic. Is it the bird nest? Too hard to tell and that's the problem. At 600 dpi, the image is too pixelated to tell.

At this point, your guess is as good as mine...

[guest]

???where do you see the court house

[RER]

To Guest:

The pictures you asked about is in the picture below. The other picture is a partial or cropped view of the right side of the picture. If you are talking about the ladies on the street then the courthouse is not viewed in the picture. The conversation is about the date of the ladies picture and the Crump Theatre.

To following the conversation history you must go back and read the last 7 pages or so to catch the reason of all the posting of this subject. Enjoy, but the research and puzzlement is still ongoing.



Note: Go to page 24 of this tread to start the subject you might be talking about.

[RER]

Home Of An Average Farmer In Indiana Counties Year 1880s

Antique Stereoscope Viewer

Comment: As you can see a steady progression of more advanced use of materials and wood is shown. This house has wooden shingles and glass windows. A hand pump well is in the left foreground. That was the coolest water I every tasted as a kid in Columbus.




Source: From the New York Public Library by Schaub, J. T. -- Photographer. Original source: Robert N. Dennis collection of stereoscopic views. This image is in the public domain because it is a mere mechanical scan or photocopy of a public domain original, or – from the available evidence – is so similar to such a scan or photocopy that no copyright protection can be expected to arise. Picture from From Wikimedia Commons. Note I processed the picture to take out some of the yellow in the picture.

For Your Information: Stereoscopy, stereoscopic imaging or 3-D (three-dimensional) imaging is any technique capable of recording three-dimensional visual information or creating the illusion of depth in an image. The illusion of depth in a photograph, movie, or other two-dimensional image is created by presenting a slightly different image to each eye. Many 3D displays use this method to convey images. It was first invented by Sir Charles Wheatstone in 1840.

[David Sechrest]

As a matter of record, Joseph I. Irwin's General Store, opened in 1871, and was located at 94 Washington Street, moving to 303 Washington Street in 1881. I found this info on the Indiana Historical Society's website. If you care to read the small bio: follow this link:

www.indianahistory.org/hbr/business_pdf/irwin_union_bank.pdf

The pictures we've been discussing here would have been taken years before Irwin's was just above 3rd and Washington.

[Rhonda]

Don't believe everything you read in that Indiana Historical Society pdf file about Mr. Irwin. It states that "in 1881, Irwin’s Bank moved to a red brick building designed by Alexander Girard..." Alexander Girard wasn't even BORN until 1907! Mr. Girard DID however, renovate the building in 1972 for office space of the Irwin Sweeney Miller Foundation, which also included the brass front entry-way. Mr. Girard was born in 1907 and died in 1993.

[RER]

Hi Rhonda:

You may be correct on not believing all you read at the Indiana Historical Society, but what David said seems to be accurate. I went to the Irwin Financial website and it confirms the 94 Washington Street address. Go to this web page and refresh the history of the Irwin dates:

www.irwinfinancial.com/corporate/history.htm

In part here is what the Irwin Financial page says:

1877
The November 17 Evening Republican carried the following advertisement:

"Banking House - Joseph I. Irwin is now doing a regular banking business at his store, 94 Washington Street. Exchange of principal cities bought and sold at reasonable rates. Business solicited."

[Ricky_Berkey]

The original location of Irwin's store/bank has been another mystery like the origin of the Crump. There are a lot of conflicting reports. The top of the building at 3rd and Washington says 1881 but he was apparently in the dry goods/banking business well before that date at a different location although there don't seem to be any pictures other than the building we know at 301 Washington. Wish we had some earlier Sanborn maps, 1886 seem to be the earliest date in the Columbus set. We have multiple mysteries concerning the 1870's time frame.

Sept 13, 2009 9:37:11 GMT -5 RER said:

Hi Rhonda:

You may be correct on not believing all you read at the Indiana Historical Society, but what David said seems to be accurate. I went to the Irwin Financial website and it confirms the 94 Washington Street address. Go to this web page and refresh the history of the Irwin dates:

www.irwinfinancial.com/corporate/history.htm

In part here is what the Irwin Financial page says:

1877
The November 17 Evening Republican carried the following advertisement:

"Banking House - Joseph I. Irwin is now doing a regular banking business at his store, 94 Washington Street. Exchange of principal cities bought and sold at reasonable rates. Business solicited."

[Rhonda]

The intent of my post was just to correct the INCORRECT information about the architect, Alexander Girard, and his part in the 301 Washington Street building. I just didn't want folks to think he was the architect of the original red brick building.....as the article would have you believe. What ever building Mr. Irwin had prior to 301 could not have been designed by Girard either.

[RER]

Hi Rhonda:

The building was not in question of whom built the building it was the location etc.

Here are more details from the Irwin Financial site:

Quote: 1824
Joseph Ireland Irwin was born outside Columbus in rural Bartholomew County, Indiana.


1846
Irwin saved the 30 cents his mother gave him for railway fare to Columbus and walked the entire distance to seek his fortune in town. He went to work at a dry goods store making $3.00 a week.


1850
Irwin opened his own mercantile store in Columbus.


1863
Other merchants began leaving their money in Irwin’s safe, which became known as “the safest safe in town.” It wasn’t until Irwin was presented with a piece of Sycamore bark – on which was written, “Mr. Irwin, please pay Jim Brown $5.00 from my poke in your safe” – that Irwin realized he was in the banking business. End Quote

Note: These historical actions were well before the 1870s. I believe this more than other historical web sites on the information we are talking about.

Comment: I agree with your comments about buiding the red brick buildings, unless proven different later.

[RER]

Crump Theater Debate & Research Becomes Stalemated

Comment: It is very hard to determine pictures and publications and phrases. These three pictures below are from the 1870s, maybe one 1880s and one in modern times of 1971 of the building.

I suspect someone might figure it out someday through research or a publication or new series of picture findings, which could finalized our thoughts. If there are more early stereoscopy photos in someones home files, or antique stores around anywhere, we might resolve the debate.

1971 1870s
1880s

Last Comment: It is known that the Crump building has been modified several times over the years. The arches and face and top pillars were removed to take on the face of the above 1971 picture. Jason or someone mentioned as I recall that the 1870 side of the wall window imprint can still be seen today. It was bricked over I guess. The inside walls might tell the story further but that might require tearing away some wall areas for search, and investigation. I doubt this will every be accomplished in the near future. So, until further discovery "make a best guess." As Harry and David said, it may rewrite some of Columbus History.



Sources of Pictures: The 1971 picture of the Crump is from the Indiana Department of Natural Resources (DNR) and the photography donated by Stanley Griffith to the DNR. The cropped 1870s picture is part of the New York Public Library and the last is a Postcard that David and George has posted. The movie shown on the outside was made available in 1971 and 1972 and was a documentary.

[David Sechrest]

RER said: Crump Theater Debate & Research Becomes Stalemated

It's also too bad Mr. Schaub didn't step back a little in the ladies picture and include the Courthouse.

And, to be quite honest, we probably shouldn't rule out that the picture may have been taken AFTER J. S. Crump's New Theatre opened. I highly doubt this the case, but the Sufferage Movement really gained head in the 1890's. I have a feeling "our Crusaders" are most likely an early grass roots effort fighting the same cause...

I've slowly been going through Mr. Schaub's pictures of Hope. I have noted there is one mistake, it appears. It's a "bird's eye" view of the city, but there are some pretty tall hills/mountains in the background. Another bird's eye view looks more correct.

I believe these pictures important enough to include here on the website in a Hope Thread.

[David Sechrest]

Rhonda said: Don't believe everything you read in that Indiana Historical Society pdf file about Mr. Irwin. It states that "in 1881, Irwin’s Bank moved to a red brick building designed by Alexander Girard..." Alexander Girard wasn't even BORN until 1907!

Rhonda, thanks for pointing this fact out.

After reading Harry McCawley's column regarding the Crump in last Thursday's paper, I noticed that leader line for the postcard image was inaccurate. I wrote him and told him that postcard pic had to have been taken sometime after 1893. Crump's street car line opened to the public on September 15, 1890. At first, the cars were pulled by horses. Circa 1893, they all went electric.

The picture in the Republic showed an electric powered trolley car and I pointed this fact out to Harry.

He printed a correction the following day.

It's not uncommon to find mistakes in the paper, or other reference books and I appreciate you correcting this...